The Animal Wellness Podcast

What if we could produce real meat—without animals?
For decades, the animal-welfare movement has worked to reduce suffering by changing laws, corporate practices, and consumer behavior. Those efforts have delivered meaningful progress. And yet, billions of animals are still raised and killed each year for food.
That reality raises an urgent question—one that would have sounded like science fiction not long ago: Can we fundamentally change how meat is made?
On this episode of the Animal Wellness Podcast, host Joseph Grove sits down with Paul Shapiro, a leading voice at the intersection of animal welfare, food innovation, and climate policy. Paul is the author of the national bestseller Clean Meat, which helped introduce and popularize the concept of growing real meat directly from animal cells—eliminating the need for factory farming altogether. In addition, we’re joined by Wayne Pacelle, who is a previous of colleague of Paul and the president of Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy.
 
In this conversation, we explore:
 
What “clean meat” (also known as cultivated meat) actually is
Where the cultivated-meat industry stands today—and what’s holding it back
How clean meat differs from plant-based alternatives
Why this technology matters for animals, public health, the climate, and the future of food
This episode goes beyond hype or fear-based narratives to ask deeper questions about ethics, innovation, and what real progress for animals might look like in the decades ahead.
 
About the Guest
Paul Shapiro is the CEO of The Better Meat Co., the author of “Clean Meat: How Growing Meat Without Animals Will Revolutionize Dinner and the World,” a five-time TEDx speaker, and the host of the Business for Good Podcast. He has been recognized as a Most Admired CEO by the Sacramento Business Journal.
 
About the Show
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 

In early 2024, a video emerged from western Wyoming showing a wolf being chased down by a snowmobile, brought into a bar, tormented, and killed. The man at the center of the video, Cody Roberts, has since been criminally charged and pleaded not guilty—turning a viral act of cruelty into a legal test of Wyoming’s animal protection laws.
In this episode of the Animal Wellness Podcast, we examine where that case stands now—and what it reveals about Wyoming’s broader relationship with wolves.
Our guest is Mark Heinz, outdoors and wildlife reporter for Cowboy State Daily, who has covered wolves, grizzlies, and wildlife conflict across the Mountain West for decades. Drawing on on-the-ground reporting, Mark discusses community reaction in Daniel and Sublette County, the legal and cultural forces shaping the prosecution, and why wolves remain one of the most polarizing animals in the American West.
We also explore whether the Cody Roberts case marks a turning point—or simply another chapter in a long-running conflict over fear, cruelty, and coexistence.
 
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 

For decades, dominant narratives in evolutionary biology have told us that conflict, competition, and dominance are the fundamental drivers of social life — both in animals and humans. But what if that story is not only incomplete, but misleading?
In this deeply reflective conversation, host Joseph Grove sits down with Dr. Shirley C. Strum, the pioneering primatologist behind “Echoes of Our Origins: Baboons, Humans, and Nature.” Drawing on more than 50 years of field research observing wild baboons in Kenya, Dr. Strum shares how her long-term work uncovered surprising truths about social life in one of our closest animal relatives — truths that have profound implications for how we understand evolution, intelligence, and ourselves.
Rather than a world dominated by brute force, Dr. Strum’s research reveals:
Baboons rarely use violence — and only when it’s strategically necessary.
Social stability arises from predictability, cooperation, and enduring relationships.
Female baboons are key to social continuity, not peripheral observers.
Mistakes and adaptability — not “perfect optimization” — are part of survival.
Grove and Dr. Strum also discuss how human cultural assumptions about gender, power, and competition have shaped scientific interpretations of animal behavior — and why those assumptions deserve scrutiny if we hope to move toward a more compassionate, accurate understanding of life on Earth.
Whether you’re fascinated by animal behavior, curious about the ethical implications of science, or simply interested in what other species can teach us about coexistence and resilience, this episode offers fresh insights and profound takeaways.
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 

This episode features Steve Dale, one of the nation’s most trusted voices on companion-animal behavior. For decades, Steve has helped millions of pet guardians better understand the animals who share their lives—through his long-running radio show “Steve Dale’s Pet World,” national television appearances, and more than a dozen books translating animal-behavior science into practical, humane guidance.
His newest book, “Ask the Dog!,” may be his most important yet—and it’s written for children. (It is available for purchase here and through other booksellers.)
At a time when dog-bite injuries are at historic highs and children account for a large share of those incidents, “Ask the Dog!” introduces a simple but powerful idea: before interacting with a dog, you don’t just ask the person holding the leash—you also “ask the dog.” Through an engaging story, the book teaches children how dogs communicate through body language, how to recognize consent and discomfort, and why respecting those signals matters.
Steve joins the show to discuss what dogs are telling us that we often miss—and how learning to listen can make children safer and deepen empathy on both ends of the leash.
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 

In this year-end episode of the Animal Wellness Podcast, host Joseph Grove is joined by Animal Wellness Action leaders to reflect on major wins for animals in 2025—and the critical fights ahead in 2026.
• Jennifer Skiff, director of international programs, shares progress in the Kangaroos Are Not Shoes campaign, which has pushed major athletic brands away from kangaroo leather, and previews new international work restoring elephant migration corridors in southern Africa.
• Don Green, political director, sounds the alarm on the dangerous Save Our Bacon Act, explaining how it would overturn voter-approved animal welfare laws, punish humane farmers, and undermine states’ rights.
• Kevin Chambers, lead investigator, details undercover investigations exposing cockfighting and dogfighting rings and explains how federal legislation could strengthen enforcement against organized animal cruelty.
• Tami Drake, research and regulatory policy director, breaks down the major strides made by the FDA, CDC, and NIH towards more humane testing methods for drug development.
The episode closes with Wayne Pacelle, president of Animal Wellness Action, who reflects on a banner year that included historic progress on ending animal testing, eliminating the school milk mandate, and reshaping corporate practices, while outlining the battles still ahead to protect wildlife and enforce new reforms.
Helping animals helps us all—and this episode shows how real change happens.
Mentioned in the Episode
• Follow our Kangaroos Are Not Shoes work—including new publications such as upcoming report on kangaroo meat in the dogfood trade—bookmark this page.
• Visit this link to action immediately to help defeat the Save Our Bacon Act.
• Here is a video that shows the brutality of cockfighting. In particular, note the harsh treatment of birds who are still alive after the fight is over. (Note: The clip is disturbing to view.)
• Care to support the work of Animal Wellness Action with $25 or any other amount? Please go here.
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 

In this episode of the Animal Wellness Podcast, we explore the extraordinary true story behind “Penelope: The World of Each Other” with author Paul Bochner. His memoir recounts a years-long relationship with a disabled, abandoned fawn who appeared unexpectedly on his property. What began as a simple act of compassion evolved into a profound interspecies bond—one built on trust, patience, and an emotional depth rarely witnessed between humans and wild animals.
We’re also joined by Wayne Pacelle, president of Animal Wellness Action, who reflects on what Penelope’s story reveals about our ethical responsibilities to wildlife living in our own communities. He challenges the notion that people should never intervene in nature, noting that human activity shapes animal lives every day.
Together, Paul and Wayne offer a moving conversation about empathy, coexistence, and what mercy truly requires of us.
“Penelope: The World of Each Other” is available for purchase here.
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 

In February 2023, Flaco—a majestic Eurasian eagle-owl—made headlines after escaping the Central Park Zoo when vandals damaged his enclosure. Born in captivity and confined for more than 13 years, few expected him to survive in the wild. But Flaco defied the odds, becoming a symbol of resilience and freedom as he soared over Manhattan, hunting rats and perching on high-rises—even doing some peeping-tom-ing along the way. His deep hoots echoed through the city, drawing nightly crowds and sparking a social media frenzy.
Flaco’s remarkable year in the wild made him a local legend and New York’s first true "celebrity owl." But his story ended in heartbreak in February 2024, when he died after striking a building—a tragedy compounded by his exposure to rat poison and avian disease. His death triggered public mourning, renewed calls for wildlife-safe urban policies, and a citywide reflection on the human impact on nature.
In this episode, we talk to Christine Mott. She is the author of the children’s book Free Bird: Flaco the Owl’s Dreams Take Flight, which was illustrated by Ofra Layla Isler and will be released on May 6, 2025. The book is aimed at readers ages 4-8, who will learn the importance of following their dreams and showing compassion for wild animals. Half of the proceeds will be donated to The Wild Bird Fund, a 501c3 that rehabilitates sick, injured, and orphaned wildlife and releases the animals back into the wilds of New York City. We also visit with a 7-year-old who read the book and get his opinion on this inspiring and thought-provoking tale of animal liberty and independence.
The book is available for purchase here. And to learn more about the campaign of Animal Wellness Action to spare barred owls from a government-sponsored plant to massacre them, go here.
 
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 

From the running of the bulls in Spain to groundhog weather predictions in Pennsylvania, festivals featuring animals exist all over the world. Some are celebrated as cultural treasures, while others are seen as outdated, even cruel. These events often raise difficult questions: Are they harmless fun, or do they exploit animals for human entertainment? Do traditions justify practices that might otherwise be considered inhumane? And perhaps most importantly—can we honor our cultural heritage without harming the very creatures we claim to celebrate? 
Our guest has explored these questions firsthand. Elizabeth MeLampy is the author of “Forget the Camel: The Madcap World of Animal Festivals and What They Say About Being Human,” a book that takes readers on a journey across the United States to witness these festivals up close. She traces their histories, examines the ethical dilemmas they present, and asks what they reveal about our relationship with animals—and ourselves. 
So today, we’re asking the big questions: What does our use of animals in festivals say about us as a species? Where do we draw the line between tradition and exploitation? And is there a way to celebrate animals without causing them harm? 
While in law school, Elizabeth worked on issues related to farmed animals, wild animals, and captive animals with Harvard’s Animal Law & Policy Clinic. She also was in the inaugural cohort of Emerging Scholar Fellows with the Brooks Institute for Animal Rights Law and Policy, where she worked on animal law scholarship. Elizabeth has traveled the country attending these festivals, meeting the people who run them, and grappling with the contradictions they present. We’re excited to hear her insights and discuss what needs to change—and what doesn’t—when it comes to animals in entertainment.
Learn more about Elizabeth MeLampy here, and you can order her book here.
 
The Animal Wellness podcast is produced by Animal Wellness Action and the Center for a Humane Economy. It focuses on improving the lives of animals in the United States and abroad through legislation and by influencing businesses to create a more humane economy. The show is hosted by veteran journalist and animal-advocate Joseph Grove. 
 
www.animalwellnessaction.org
www.centerforahumaneeconomy.org
 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalWellnessAction
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AWAction_News
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHumaneCenter
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalwellnessaction/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centerforahumaneeconomy/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/animal-wellness-action/ 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_6FxM4hD6oS5VSUwsCnNQ 
 
PRO: BMIComposer: Jonathan Shapiro (IP# 00240288778)Publisher: Kulanu Music (IP# 00240190310)